Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

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Ruckryder
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Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ruckryder » Sun Sep 11, 2011 6:27 pm

I just picked up this non running bike project , my previous bikes were 1948 H-D rigid panhead , 1983 450 Nighthawk , 2005 Honda Nps60 , and numerous dirt bikes . I'm a new motorcycle tech graduated last year , my last job of 33 years closed shop so I applied to retrain and motorcycles and scooters are my passion . Image
The puchase price was $850 CAN. it has new tires , front and rear chain sprockets along with a new chain .
It was only firing on the 3-4 cylinders , so with the cam covers off only half the cam was turning , ugh snapped cam , digging further , found no lubrication on the right side . The head , cam cover , and cam all need to be replaced ( rightside journals are beat to crap ). I'll have to work my way down to the oil pump and see if there's a oil gallery blockage .
So this is the point where I am now . Cheers guys & I hope you don't mind me picking your brains about interchangable parts etc . I love this bike and hope to get it all sorted out before next spring .
" Don’t be discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." ~ Unknown

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Volker_P
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Volker_P » Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:25 am

Welcome here! :D

nice 1979. Note that most 79 parts except engine are a bit different from the standard and custom models. European Z-models are more similar to 79's. Snapped cam sounds strange, never heard of that before. Note that 1981 on heads have different intake spacing to fit the CV carbs. There are also 50hp camshafts around, but hardly outside Europe. Nevertheless you may want to check that you get asymmetric ~36mm lobes insted of only 33mm symmeric ones.

Black head cover and cylinders may be a hint that here parts of a 1982SC were used.
For the lubrication problem, start with the oil sucktion funnel inside the oil pan. I've seen almost completely blocked ones including a mess of metal parts in there! So I fear you won't like what you find in there. The oil pan comes off with the engine in the frame, consider to post a picture here.
If it should be no blocking problem, the funnel has to carry two intact O-rings on its stem where it is plugged into the engine case.
Main bearings seem not be sold anywhere any more, so good luck not only for that.
However my guess is already that this asks for another engine to build up.
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Ruckryder
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ruckryder » Mon Sep 12, 2011 6:03 pm

Volker_P wrote:Welcome here! :D

nice 1979. Note that most 79 parts except engine are a bit different from the standard and custom models. European Z-models are more similar to 79's. Snapped cam sounds strange, never heard of that before. Note that 1981 on heads have different intake spacing to fit the CV carbs. There are also 50hp camshafts around, but hardly outside Europe. Nevertheless you may want to check that you get asymmetric ~36mm lobes insted of only 33mm symmeric ones.

Black head cover and cylinders may be a hint that here parts of a 1982SC were used.
For the lubrication problem, start with the oil sucktion funnel inside the oil pan. I've seen almost completely blocked ones including a mess of metal parts in there! So I fear you won't like what you find in there. The oil pan comes off with the engine in the frame, consider to post a picture here.
If it should be no blocking problem, the funnel has to carry two intact O-rings on its stem where it is plugged into the engine case.
Main bearings seem not be sold anywhere any more, so good luck not only for that.
However my guess is already that this asks for another engine to build up.




Thanks for the info , I pulled the cylinders and found the orfice on the #1-2 side clear but 3-4 side was plugged , I'll reinstall the cylinders soon with new o-rings and see if the pressure has returned . Also I'll clean the pickup screen & see what surprises I can find in the pan & filter :) I'll post pics of what I find .Image
Image
Shows the importance of changing your oil . Those orfice tube openings are the size of main jets .
" Don’t be discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." ~ Unknown

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Volker_P
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Volker_P » Tue Sep 13, 2011 5:38 am

This looks really ugly. Maybe you will need a head cover, too, as the upper halves of the camshaft bearings are there.
Nevertheless this gives some hope that problems are restricted to the head and main bearings and connection rod did not suffer. That would be really good news!

Possibly oil/filter was in there too long or somebody did something wrong installing the oil filter. The things to put in that order on the oil filter bolt for installation are: spring, washer, filter, spacer. Something you may like to check during disassemble.

I would also remove the alternator cover and pull the small plug at the bottom. It is just plugged in and fixed by the cover and will pop out and give you a mess if you try to start without the alternator cover. Behind it there is the main oil channel for the main bearings. Check out for debris there. If cleaning should be required, there is a hex plug bolt at the right side to make it accessible from both sides or to pull something through.
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum

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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ruckryder » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:58 am

Yes really ugly , I'm bidding on a matched set of cover , head & cam . Good timing , it came up at the right time Lol . I checked the oil pump and everything look within spec . Inspected the main oil gallery , looks like a little sludge on the bottom so I plan to flush out the crankcase . The bottom end appears tight which makes me cautiously optomistic . Hopefully I will get it all together and still have some riding time this fall :D Meanwhile I'll check over the rest of the bike . More pics as I progress .
" Don’t be discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." ~ Unknown

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Ouch
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ouch » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:19 pm

little late...but it a clean bike!!

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Ruckryder
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ruckryder » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:32 pm

Yes nice clean simple bike is what I like , but so far only on the outside =:-/
I started getting into more of the lubrication system today . I will be doing a good flush of the insides for sure . Image
Into the bath with yee , foul parts .
Image
Then I'll wash the whole lot in the dishwasher :P
No big chunks , but fine sludge .
Image
Image
I'll see if any of these are available locally ...
Image
And a shot of my tiny workspace :)
Image
" Don’t be discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." ~ Unknown

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Volker_P
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Volker_P » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:46 am

Does not look too bad.
Interestingly the head O-rings don't look sqeezed at all.
As you had a blocked oil nozzle problem, also check out the oil spray nozzle for the primary chain in the crankcase.

And yes, really great, professional bike lift!
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forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum

cb650
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby cb650 » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:00 am

I wonder if to much idling on the sidestand contributed to the problem.
Did you clean the tank out?!?!?!?!

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Ruckryder
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ruckryder » Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:11 am

Possibly a combination of that and neglect , you'd think that with the cam thrashing around they would notice something amiss and shut down quickly . Hard to say . The previous owner did mention he had the carbs cleaned and sync'ed , and the top end redone . I'll be pulling the oil pump apart and checking the rest of the orfices , thanks for the tips :) Yes the bike lift is a godsend for the knees & back and the price was right got it for $200 as a bike shop was converting to air-powered ) , it will handle small to medium size bikes , but not big cruisers , I was mostly fixing and restoring scooters in the city until the wife & I moved upcountry . Man , I can't wait to get the bike up and running for some fall riding :D Great job on the site btw and I'm glad I found it :D Cheers !

Update : Located parts and puchased , now it's up to the Postal service & Customs :)
Last edited by Ruckryder on Thu Sep 15, 2011 10:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
" Don’t be discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." ~ Unknown

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Ruckryder
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ruckryder » Thu Sep 15, 2011 5:53 pm

I think I've traced the problem to this ...
Image

I also pulled the oil pump , cleaned and measured , all within spec . I have to call the Honda dealer and see if any or all O-rings for the pump and top end are available . Not reusing anything .
Image

Btw the pressure relief valve is stuck in the bore , is it just a snug fit ? or should it just drop out ?
Nvm , it was just a snug fit , picked it out with a needle nose :)
" Don’t be discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." ~ Unknown

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Volker_P
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Volker_P » Fri Sep 16, 2011 7:18 am

What's wrong with that rocker arm? Don't see anything for sure, but the small cutout on the cam contact surface looks suspicious.

A very recent head job would explain the intact head O-rings. Probably the cam crashed very soon after that.

With a cracked cam, I would also like to check out if the valve stems of that side are still straight.

The oil pump will also get tight with a suitable O-ring. No urgent need for the square cross section.
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forum links to common technical issues

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Ruckryder
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ruckryder » Fri Sep 16, 2011 1:21 pm

Good point about the stems , I'll check them but the old parts are unusable , so I'm replacing the head , camshaft & cam cover with a set I found on Ebay . I suspect the excess silicone (sorry should have been more descriptive) used on the cam cover seal is what plugged the cyl/case orfice . I'll try that oil pump tip too , thanks :) I was wondering if they had low pressure warning switches on the the cylinder head , would it give you sufficient time to shut down before any damage occured ? Just a thought .
" Don’t be discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." ~ Unknown

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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Volker_P » Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:59 am

Ruckryder wrote:I suspect the excess silicone (sorry should have been more descriptive) used on the cam cover seal is what plugged the cyl/case orfice .

That's what usually produces a plugged screen on the oil filter funnel. Seen some of such engines, looked bad at many locations but none of them died at camshaft bearings. Remember there is or should be still the filter. However the filter may be bypassed when it is plugged by the overpressure valve inside the bolt or if it is installed in wrong order with the spring and collar. That's why I mentioned this above.
In any case the content of your oil pan still looks quite harmless compared to other crashed engines I've seen but at all of them the camshaft bearings looked better than yours.

If you have something like a RFVC single (like e.g. XR600) or a old CB250K (>11000rpm engine with 180° crankshaft), I'd say install a warning light, however I don't think it is necessary for a CB650.
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum

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Ruckryder
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Re: Newly aquired 1979 CB 650 project

Postby Ruckryder » Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:34 am

I'm still waiting for my parts , I'm debating weather to get this gasket set http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Honda-CB650-Gask ... 588fee1531
or just buy the gaskets I need for a topend overhaul from the Honda dealer . Also The gasket set seller states that everything is there , but I don't see the oil pump gaskets , did I miss anything else ? Decisions , decisions , =:-/
" Don’t be discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward." ~ Unknown


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