Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

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JeremyB
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:36 pm

Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby JeremyB » Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:41 pm

Hi,

I heard that the handle bar height in Ontario Canada is 15" from the seat of the bike with the driver on it.
Is there any one that had any experience with this?

FordMan
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: Southern Minnesota

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby FordMan » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:48 pm

Seems to be very true, seems foolish for this guy to make a video about it, if it wasnt a law
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncekCxGglro
"Vintage Revolution"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOrn_h ... DZhOPmH81w
Current:
1979 Honda CB650 (HardTail Build)
1983 Suzuki GS850L (Fix and Minor Restore)
Old:
1989 Suzuki Katana 600
1978 Honda CB400T "Hawk"
1983 Honda VF750

JeremyB
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby JeremyB » Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:18 pm

Thank you for your answer.

I have seen the video before, the law seems really strange.
I just got an answer from a custom bike builder and I had asked him how
the regulations are if your bike goes for the safety check if you want to have plates.
His answer was that at the safety check, they dont look at it.
It is law enforcement that controls this.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Thanks!

Spyug53
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:30 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby Spyug53 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:31 pm

This is an interesting question and while I have heard of it before , I can't find it in print. For the cops to be able to charge someone on it would need to be in the Highway Traffic Act and is undoubtedly in there, in the small print I would guess.

I'm sure the OPP have it in their list of preferred charges as I have seen bikes with ape hangers taken off the road on the Friday the 13th runs to Port Dover. My cop friends here in Hamilton (riders among them) couldn't confirm, however.

As mentioned in your response, it is not something that most mechanics would fail a bike for as it is not specifically stated in the rules and regs for certification. It would be something that is "read between the lines" and open to interpretation and any mechanic fearful for loss of his licence would call for a fail. Which would like result in a "discussion" between the mechanic and the owner and request for clarification from MTO, as it once did in my own case over an inaccurate speedo.

The rules state that the controls must function fully and there must be no impediment to the safe operation or any alterations that could cause a safety hazard. Being a little higher than a standard placed bar could, of course, cause a safe operational hazard in most but not everyone's mind.

I personally think bars with high hand controls are unsafe and ugly but as we say ,"to each his own"......until the cops get you :D
"Slowest beasts are always strongest and Manage to live the longest".
"If it's no Scottish, it's crap".

JeremyB
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby JeremyB » Tue Jan 27, 2015 4:59 pm

Hi Spyug53,

I contacted a inspection station and they mentioned schedule 6 of the ontario high
way traffic act, this says that the top part of the seat, with the driver on it, cant have a larger distance to the handlebar than 15 inches.
Also the tail light needs to be on the fender, a front fender and chaingard ar mandatory.

Spyug53
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:30 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby Spyug53 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:51 pm

Well that clears that up. Good to know.

I knew about the fender and chain guard requirements and the requirement for brake and signal lights along with daylight headlight and mirrors as these are more clearly stated in the requirements for vehicle inspection.

I don't think most of the mechanics doing bike safties would worry about bar height or the correct placement of the licence plate, i.e. vertical and illuminated by white light.

Interestingly there is or was a section in the statutes that stipulated that motorcycles could not be modified in such a way as to change controls and fittings from those provided and installed by the manufacturer.

Technically that meant things like installing forward controls on a bike with standard foot pegs, shifter and brake or even changing engine displacement or other such modifications would be grounds for disqualification of the safety. Strictly speaking ,even changing out the stock bars.

It has been years since I read the act and I'm not sure if I have a copy but I'll try to locate it.

I do know of a couple of mechanics who will not safety any bike that have had frame, wheel, brake or engine mods not completed by a licenced technician.

The interesting thing about these types of mods is that they appear benign and many of us do them without a second thought but you have to be really, really careful. Not just from the standpoint of safety, of course and staying within the law but perhaps more importantly in dealing with the insurers.

Not informing them and getting their consent can land you in a world of financial hurt should an accident happen. Injure yourself or someone else and the insurer finds out the bike is modified and you can lose your coverage and be thrown into a financial nightmare.

A stock bike may not be sexy but if you tart it up or heavily mod it you need to get the insurers approval before you hit the street. This I know for a fact.

Six or seven years ago I built an XS 650 Street Tracker. It was heavily modded including frame, swingarm, suspension, brakes and engine. I had insured the bike as stock before modding and never thought to talk to the insurer. On renewal they asked if there had been anything done to the bike I fessed up and they immediately cancelled coverage. Flatly stating they did not insure modified bikes. It took me weeks to arrange new coverage and it was a substantially higher premium than previous despite an absolute clean and long term riding record. I only rode the bike for a short time and sold it soon thereafter.

In this day and age in this province you have look after yourself. Following the rules and verifying you are legal and safe just makes sense to me.

Cheers

The Tracker:
Image
"Slowest beasts are always strongest and Manage to live the longest".
"If it's no Scottish, it's crap".

JeremyB
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby JeremyB » Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:48 pm

Hi,

The funny thing is that when I contacted them to ask, 1 of the responses was, get the bike, get a safety and modify after the safety is done.
Nice when you want to sell it and give the buyer the problems.
Also when you modify first and then get the safety, you know it is cleared.

The same schedule 6 tells you that you can do modifications as long as it is done in a safe way.
They will do a visual frame inspection. Checking it for cracks and weak spots

I am building a bobber out of my 1981 CB650C and have the swing arm extended by 4 inches.
I also rebuild the back part of the frame to make it ready for a solo seat.

If you check KIJIJI, there are plenty of modified bikes for sale that have a license plate.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/source ... 8114_e.htm

Spyug53
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:30 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby Spyug53 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:14 am

The thing I find is that no two mechanics or MTO "officials" will give the same answer.

Not withstanding that there are a lot of plated modified bikes, a lot of them are potentially unsafe and dangerous and have obviously "slipped" by uncaring or unknowledgeable mechanics. There are quite a few of them out there and I'm sure we all know some that will even write a cert without even eyeballing the bike.

My concerns are more with the safety and liability issues of bike modification.

Many, many modifiers are inexperienced and not at all knowledgeable about what they are doing. They just do something based on the look or expected performance. There are lots of guys that chop on frames and have no idea how to make a safe weld but have a cheap wire welder that makes an impressive bead. Many of them are on sites like this.

The problem is that the modifications may look good and will perhaps pass a cursory safety inspection. May even work fine for a while but if and when they let go bad accidents may happen and very serious problems can occur. Legal and financial problems that can devastate you.

You mention that mechanics are supposed to check for frame repairs and welds but I'll bet you many of them don't know what they are looking at or even would know if the weld is good.

For years I frequented one of the largest and most popular independent shops in my area. Bought a ton of parts from them and had 5 or 6 bikes certed including that tracker. The shop is so busy, it is often hard to get a bike in for certs but they are very accommodating and will often squeeze you in at the end of the day.......for a 5 minute safety.

Usually that consists of a check of lights, an eyeball to tires and fork seals and a 2 minute ride around the parking lot to test shift and brakes. At least that was how my last cert there was performed. $60 and thank you. I no longer use them.

Now not all places are like that but many are so getting a cert is no guarantee the bike gets an in depth review. On one of the bikes I had there were frame repairs but I don't believe they were looked at and certainly nothing was mentioned.

I agree that the modifications should be done before the bike is certed but I would only feel comfortable if the mechanic asked about the mods and who did them. Especially welds and especially if he wanted to know that the welder was a certified pro.

Our system is definitely full of holes and needs tightening up but in the meanwhile it is up to us to look after ourselves which includes having experienced trustworthy professionals do the modifications or at least checking and approving our work. And as I mentioned before, you really need to have the insurer's approval and I'd suggest it be in writing.

Good luck with the project and post some pics so we can see what you are doing.
Cheers.
"Slowest beasts are always strongest and Manage to live the longest".
"If it's no Scottish, it's crap".

FordMan
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: Southern Minnesota

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby FordMan » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:11 pm

Wow that canadian government, sounds like a bunch of Nazi's when it comes to custom stuff.

If a cop were to pull me over, and complain about anything on my bike, car or truck, they would hear this "as soon as u start paying the payment, insurance, fuel & maintenance costs, you can tell me what i can or cant do with my property."

Last time i said this i got guns drawn on me, and backup called, and then later got an apology from the sheriff, and chief of police, and was sent on my merry way.
Btw the cop drew his gun when he tried to tell me i had to tear the window tint off my truck, right then and there. He got scared with my reaction to that.

I am always very, very, courteous to every officer, heck half my family has cops in it, but i freak out when anyone thinks they can tell me what i can or cant do with my stuff, then tell me i need to destroy my property.
"Vintage Revolution"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOrn_h ... DZhOPmH81w
Current:
1979 Honda CB650 (HardTail Build)
1983 Suzuki GS850L (Fix and Minor Restore)
Old:
1989 Suzuki Katana 600
1978 Honda CB400T "Hawk"
1983 Honda VF750

Spyug53
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:30 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby Spyug53 » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:45 pm

Well my friend that is the big difference between the land of the free and the frozen white north ,ha,ha.

You have always had a culture of being individuals and doing what you want or feel is right where as we are a land of sheep, outwardly happily doing what we are told. Grumbling under our breath but still doing as big brother tells us. :cry:

Canadians are complacent for sure as relates to government, shoot only about 30% of us bother to vote.......but don't ever try to tell us anyone else is better than us at hockey and for gawd sake don't tell us we can't drink beer or Timmies coffee (Tim Horton's coffee and donut chain). You will then have then called up a shit storm. :lol:

On the upside, we mostly don't carry guns so generally there is less chance of getting shot hereabouts.....unless you live in Toronto and hang with gang bangers :shock:

As much as we have to put up with shite it is still not a bad place to hang your lid. Come up and see us some time :D

Cheers friends.
"Slowest beasts are always strongest and Manage to live the longest".
"If it's no Scottish, it's crap".

JeremyB
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby JeremyB » Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:18 pm

Hahaha,

I have to laugh, I am born and raised in The Netherlands and over there
you can almost says what ever you want to a cop and they wont do anything.
Now that I am living in Canada I like the fact that ther is (some) respect for the forces.

I am trying to upload some pics from my modified frame so I hope it is working.

This before welding it together.

Image

Image

FordMan
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: Southern Minnesota

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby FordMan » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:30 am

Spyug53 wrote:Well my friend that is the big difference between the land of the free and the frozen white north ,ha,ha.

You have always had a culture of being individuals and doing what you want or feel is right where as we are a land of sheep, outwardly happily doing what we are told. Grumbling under our breath but still doing as big brother tells us. :cry:

Canadians are complacent for sure as relates to government, shoot only about 30% of us bother to vote.......but don't ever try to tell us anyone else is better than us at hockey and for gawd sake don't tell us we can't drink beer or Timmies coffee (Tim Horton's coffee and donut chain). You will then have then called up a shit storm. :lol:

On the upside, we mostly don't carry guns so generally there is less chance of getting shot hereabouts.....unless you live in Toronto and hang with gang bangers :shock:

As much as we have to put up with shite it is still not a bad place to hang your lid. Come up and see us some time :D

Cheers friends.


You canadians suck at hockey.... JK, yeah Minnesotans are nuts for hockey, like u guys are. We just arent happy we lost the North Stars, to only get an expansion team "The Wild"
Yeah there is always positives to look at like, atleast this isnt North Korea lol.
I just hate to see a people that elected a government to govern them and protect their freedoms, only to run them over with any and all laws they possibly can.
America is headed towards socialism if we dont as a people stop this path we are on.

Anyways, back on topic they need to allow the law to be mindful of people and how no one person is the same, a one size rule doesnt fit all regarding handlebars.
"Vintage Revolution"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOrn_h ... DZhOPmH81w
Current:
1979 Honda CB650 (HardTail Build)
1983 Suzuki GS850L (Fix and Minor Restore)
Old:
1989 Suzuki Katana 600
1978 Honda CB400T "Hawk"
1983 Honda VF750

FordMan
Posts: 130
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2014 10:20 pm
Location: Southern Minnesota

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby FordMan » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:33 am

JeremyB wrote:Hahaha,

I have to laugh, I am born and raised in The Netherlands and over there
you can almost says what ever you want to a cop and they wont do anything.
Now that I am living in Canada I like the fact that ther is (some) respect for the forces.

I am trying to upload some pics from my modified frame so I hope it is working.

This before welding it together.

Image

Image

awesome work on that frame btw!! Love it!!
"Vintage Revolution"
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCOrn_h ... DZhOPmH81w
Current:
1979 Honda CB650 (HardTail Build)
1983 Suzuki GS850L (Fix and Minor Restore)
Old:
1989 Suzuki Katana 600
1978 Honda CB400T "Hawk"
1983 Honda VF750

Spyug53
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2013 11:30 am
Location: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby Spyug53 » Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:48 pm

It is interesting that you are building a frame as it ties in with what I had been saying vis a vis the insurance and liability issues.

Now the quality of design and manufacture looks very good so I hope you will follow that up with some top notch welding. Are you doing it yourself or having it done professionally? My apologies if I assume you are not a trained and experienced welder but for some reason, I sense you are not.

If I am right and you are indeed welding yourself I hope that you will have a pro shop examine your work, even if you do have experience. For the insurance process it might be helpful to have a letter certifying the work.

The reason I am so insistent about this is I have seen first hand how difficult getting insurance can be for custom built bikes and the hoops they often make you jump through. A few years ago a good family friend had a very expensive custom bike built from ground up by a prominent local long time builder. The bike was on the far side of $75k to build and took over 18 months to complete. When it came time to insure, he was unable to obtain insurance locally as most insurers do not do custom bikes. He did, ultimately, get insurance from an out of province insurer but after substantial difficulty and expense.

One of the stumbling blocks was that the insurer would not accept the builder as an accepted manufacturer despite his licence. They found out in their inquiries that the builder's welder, despite years of experience, held no welding certification of any kind.

In order to get coverage, the bike had to go to an approved structural engineering company for both design testing of the frame geometry and testing of the welding. As that included some disassembly of the bike and removal of powder coating at several key weld points, then repair of the powder coating it was an expensive process, which I believe added about $10k to the bill.

The sad end to the story was that no more than 2 months after getting the bike on the road, it was stolen from his highly secure garage and never recovered. To make matters just a little worse, it took over a year for the insurer to settle and when they did it was for a lot less than he had in to it.
A total fiasco. He wen out and bought a nice plain Jane Harley with some of the proceeds.

I certainly hope you do not experience anything like this and I hope that you will take some of what I say into consideration. It is getting harder and more expensive to obtain bike coverage in this province so anything you can do to keep the insurers happy will be to your benefit. They like papers, pictures and certificates so do yourself a favour and document everything as you go along.

Only one other question for you. Why the hard tail? Damn those things can destroy your spine.....but that is another series of stories :lol:

Keep us posted as to how she goes. Its always interesting to see what others are up to.

Cheers mate.
"Slowest beasts are always strongest and Manage to live the longest".
"If it's no Scottish, it's crap".

JeremyB
Posts: 33
Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 7:36 pm

Re: Handle bar height in Ontario Canada

Postby JeremyB » Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:09 pm

Hi Spyug53,

The frame was already like this before we started discussing this issue.

The Main frame of this bike is still factory frame and no modifications.
I understand that a bike build of from nothing is a different story also with the frame# and the registration of this.

About the welding, a part of the bike is welded by a welding shop and the other part is done by me.
The swingarm has 4" stretch.
You are right, I am not a certified welder but I went to college and did my welding courses there so I am not inexperienced.

Also, I bought the CB650 for $450 and when I am done with everything, I spend less than $1500 in total building this bike, so besides to make it road worthy I enjoy the building just as much.
I dont have a time frame to finish this and if parts needs to be redone by a certified builder, so be it.
The ultimate goal is to get a road worthy bike done by my self and I want to take every obstacle I face.
The bike has a tittle and I have all the papers.
Thats why all the questions about the safety requirements.

A hard tail is just so much nicer to look at, I have the solo seat with the 3" springs it will give a little suspension but not much.
I also dont intend to make this bike using it to travel the world haha.

Overall I just want to build a bike and I an going from there.

BTW, I asked around at inspection stations and a well respected one here in Ottawa didnt mention anything about the welding.

It is a little the same as putting your own brake rotors and pads in your car.
The insurance is still there and not every one doing it is a licensed mechanic.


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