Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

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mojoblues
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby mojoblues » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:51 am

Thank you Folsoml, you did a very good job, I hope I can do it, will try for sure :)
I've got exhaust down, oil out, filter and plate are off, started opening today:

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So far to me it looks ok (I don't know what was I expecting :) ), but the gaskets look ok (need to clean up a bit, it looks like there is some leftovers from previous gasket).
Is there anything here to check or can I go further?
In the meantime I will get rid of the rust from bolts, nuts and pipes.
'79 cb650z RC03

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Volker_P
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby Volker_P » Tue Dec 10, 2013 2:58 am

Looks all right and clean so far.
There is not much visible oil in that head so it probably did not run for a longer while.
You need to clean off these gasket residuals at the rubber coins and elesewhere. In fact cleaning stuff is very time consuming but necessary and worth it to get the engine tight again afterwards.
Taking lots of pictures is helpful to get it together again.

Did you have a look into the oil pan yet? Here the possibly interesting things collect. :roll:
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forum links to common technical issues

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mojoblues
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby mojoblues » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:24 am

I will clean everything that I find, including the residue from the gasket, I don't think it would be good to have that falling inside the engine.
I did have a look at the oil pan: some remains of the gasket and one piece of the metal (I need to figure that out).
I'm taking it very slowly, with manual with me, lots of photos and small ziplock bags to put the stuff in (and mark it). Still need to buy the torque wrench, but also I want to change all the choke, gas and brake lines.
So far it has been very satisfying and already I've learned a lot about this bike (I knew nothing :) ).
'79 cb650z RC03

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Volker_P
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby Volker_P » Tue Dec 10, 2013 4:56 am

mojoblues wrote:... and one piece of the metal (I need to figure that out).

A picture could help.

For the brake lines, get stainless steel replacements. "New" rubbers will be 30 years old. And be careful with hose lengths, 1980/81may differ so measure and ask what you get!
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum

mojoblues
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby mojoblues » Tue Dec 10, 2013 9:22 am

I have removed a cylinder head and I'm not sure that cylinders are suppose to be black on top. It's dry powdery surface, like from exhaust .. Should I go deeper to check what is inside or ...?

Image

On the other hand, cam chain tensioner looks all right, no damage, springs ok.

Image
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Volker_P
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby Volker_P » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:35 am

Nice so far.
mojoblues wrote: .. Should I go deeper to check what is inside or ...?

What was the reason to open this engine anyway? :roll:

And it might help to see that part from the oil pan.
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum

mojoblues
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby mojoblues » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:01 am

This is the piece that was in oil pan (1-1,5cm) it looked like the part of some casing:

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But I think I've found where it came from! This is above the oil plate:

Image
'79 cb650z RC03

mojoblues
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby mojoblues » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:11 am

The reason for opening was that the bike would not start, you could hear the chain inside spinning, but it was like it couldn't catch something to start it :roll: . I could start it by pushing, in 2nd gear, but it would run very rough, I was constantly twisting the throttle to keep it running. Mechanic said that it could be the cam chain tensioner.
Also, since it was from the beginning running rough on slower rpm's, I thought it would be good idea to clean the tank and carbs (esp. slow jets).
Apart from that, I wanted to make sure that everything works good, to change what needs to be changed: I need to trust it :)
I bought it in january this year, and all I had was problems, rough ride, hard to start, hard to restart ...
And of course, knowing something about the bike I ride is not a bad idea :)
'79 cb650z RC03

mojoblues
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby mojoblues » Wed Dec 11, 2013 10:45 am

OK, now I understand the black pistons (google is my friend):
was probably running rich (who knows when), so I will pull them out, clean them and put it back. Sounds easy :)
'79 cb650z RC03

Spyug53
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby Spyug53 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:29 am

Sorry to hear of your issues but from what I can see there doesn't seem to be much wrong with it and I'm sure you can get it sorted yourself.

The first thing about ownership of old bikes is you have to learn to work on it yourself or have lots of money to pay the "pros" to do it. As you have already found out, getting the pros on it is not the best course.

In order to sort it out you will need a good manual for the bike and I understand there may be copies available on this site. Being new to it myself I can't point you to it sorry.

In addition to the manual you must have a good basic tool chest including metric wrenches both open end and socket, a decent torque wrench, screw drivers, an impact wrench and importantly a digital multimeter and a circuit test light. Obviously you have some of it but if you don't I would suggest rounding things up when you can. It will make things easier and more enjoyable.

Now in looking at your posts so far, I'd say you needn't have gone in to the engine right away. That proves nothing at this point.

The first thing to do with any new to you bike is determine if the engine turns freely. If the bike had been running recently that should be easy to determine by hitting the start button. It may not start but it should turn over. If you don't know the history or it sat for some time it is best to do this by hand by a wrench on the nut at the end of the crank. If it doesn't turn easily then you need to determine why and its usually piston rings that are rusted to the bores.

Now in your case that is all moot as the engine turned over. Moving to the electrical system would be the next thing to do. Is the battery fully charged, healthy and does it hold the charge, if its not or if the battery is old it may turn things slowly (and runs down quickly) but doesn't have enough power to fire the plugs as well.

Often it helps to boost the bike battery with an auto or marine battery just make sure it is not in a running vehicle at the time as the bike's electrical system can be overwhelmed and burned out.

Once you know you have spark then you want to know that you have gas getting to the cylinders. In most cases, this is indeed the problem. Old stale gas plugs up the carbs with varnish and nothing get through. Very common these days as gas does not have a good shelf life and goes "off" very quickly, even in as little as a month or two. Once you get it working I would recommend adding fuel stabilizers like Seafoam (if you can get it).

It looks like you were headed in that direction at the beginning. That tank was not coated, which brings up another point about old bikes.......never trust everything the previous owner may say about the bike.......90% of them lie or don't tell the whole truth in my experience.

I don't know what is available to you to coat the tank but, as others have mentioned, it is a process of cleaning and etching the tank to then accept a "plastic or epoxy" coating. Some coatings are clear but several are opaque but in all cases, you will be able to see them and feel them.

I'm not sure why you need to coat the tank, it actually looks quite clean to me but if you feel you need to check with your local bike stores to see what they recommend but do it yourself. There is lots of information on the web (youtube) on how to do it.

I would concentrate on the carbs. I believe there is a tutorial here somewhere but if not have a look at this site: http://members.dslextreme.com/users/bikecliff/
This is a great site of useful information put together by one of the members of the GS Resources website.

The big thing about carb cleaning is that it looks intimidating but it is not. You just have to be organized and methodical. And there is only one way to do it. You must disassemble the carbs as shown and dip them for 12 to 24 hours in a proper carb cleaning solution. There is no shortcut if you want it to work. Trust me. I have done probably 30 sets in the last 11 years and some of them a few times over so I know. Shooting spray from a can won't do it.

Another very important part of cleaning and tuning carbs is that you should always put in fresh O-rings. Air infiltration is a problem that will have you chasing your tail when the carbs won't run right. the O-rings may look fine but they all deteriorate, crack and split.

Along this line, crappy running can also result from air infiltration around or through the carb intakes to the head. They deteriorate too and often have to be replaced so keep that in mind.

So, at this point, I would suggest you put the engine back together and concentrate on tidying up your fuel system, especially the carbs. Don't forget to check your battery situation too.

Good luck with it. With a bit of work and some patience, you'll sort it out and get her running again. You can do it!
"Slowest beasts are always strongest and Manage to live the longest".
"If it's no Scottish, it's crap".

mojoblues
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby mojoblues » Wed Dec 11, 2013 11:51 am

@Spyug53:
Tank: I didn't feel it needed a cleaning, but since I had it off, wanted to check it. Sure enough, I've found crystals inside at the bottom, most likely from the broken filter. If I don't need to clean it more or strip the (bad) coating, even better.
Carbs: those where the first on my list to do, since everybody says it's the basics of the good running bike. They also look quite good, but will go through thorough cleaning - as I said before, I might have a clogged slow jets.
Tools: I'm missing a torque wrench and few other things but I will get them in the next few days. I do have a manual, it's actually next to my bike, since I would not touch it without :)
Battery (newly installed few months ago) and electrics worked, it was a running bike, but now it would not start, just the noise that sounds like it's slipping. I'm not sure what turn over exactly means, but it sounds right.
I have to admit, I'm scared of electrical work, I have no idea how those work. :oops:
Thank you for very detailed answers and for encouragement. :)
'79 cb650z RC03

Spyug53
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby Spyug53 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:16 pm

No need to be scared by electrics. Again it will seem intimidating at first but with the right tools, a wiring diagram and some common sense you can figure it out.

There are several things to know about electrical circuits and bikes in general. The first is that all circuits have a + at one end and a - at the other. In a properly operating circuit power flows from the positive to the negative.

Ideally power should flow with no interruption or impediment and full voltage (say 12+ volts) should flow from the battery to all the devices that need it and arrive at the same voltage it started with. It doesn't happen , of course, as "resistance" in the wiring, connectors and devices it travels through rob some. You will see this more clearly when it comes to checking voltage at your coils. Seldom, if ever will the coil voltage come close to the battery voltage. The wiring, but especially the connectors will put up resistance and rob some voltage.

So one of the first lessons about creating and maintaining good electrical health in any bike is to make sure all connectors are clean and tight. From the battery terminals, through the fuse blocks, down the harness and through all the connectors to the devices everything needs to be corrosion free and tight.

Another important thing is that all grounds need to also be clean and tight, metal to metal. If the ground is not good, the circuit will not complete and the device will not work. So lesson 2 is make sure all grounds are clean and tight.

There is obviously more to it than that but these are key points to remember.

To check these things the 2 tools you must have and which you will need to make fault diagnosis easier are a digital multimeter and a circuit test probe. The test probe is especially helpful as you can actually see where the power is and it allows you to trace its path along a circuit. both of these tools are now relatively cheap and available at most automotive stores.

Once you have the bike running you can start learning to use these tools and by doing so you will over come the fear I know.

The first thing you will want to do is ensure your bike charges and that is an easy first test. Have the bike running and your meter set to DC volt scale in its lowest setting. With the probes on the respective poles see what your idle voltage is (Maybe 12 volts or so, perhaps less). With the engine revved to 3000/5000 (have an assistant on the throttle) check again. It should be better than 13.5v but less than 15. Anything more or less and you have an issue that will need to be tracked down but don't worry, we have more tests for those things.

Charging health is really important as you can imagine. There is nothing worse than riding say 50 miles from home, stopping for coffee and getting back on a bike that won't start. In this regard and for peace of mind I always install voltage meter to keep an eye on my charging as I ride along. Cheap enough and plentiful on e-bay or through automotive stores.

Electrics on a bike can be puzzling but I have yet to hear of, or encounter one that couldn't be sorted and trust me I've run up against more than a few.

First off get the bike running my friend. Once you do have a Slivo or two to celebrate. My buddy Damir and I will have one to toast your success. :mrgreen:
"Slowest beasts are always strongest and Manage to live the longest".
"If it's no Scottish, it's crap".

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Folsoml
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby Folsoml » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:25 pm

If you not yet taken the cylinder head off, don't do it. The symptoms you are describing will not be fixed by this. You can clean the carbon off the tops of the pistons with the head still on. Put it all back together and lets work on the carbs--that's where our problem lies. Before you put it back together, make sure you go get a good torque wrench. You will need it for the cylinder head cover. And make sure you follow the pattern for tightening the bolts. This is important. You will also need a new gasket set for the cylinder head cover--especially the pucks that cover the cylinder head bolts. These will leak if you try to reuse them. Lastly, click the link in my signature. There is a thread in there about your cam tensioner and how it should be reinstalled. It will go in and look right, but be wrong.
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mojoblues
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby mojoblues » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:58 pm

Spyug53: That is a very nice explanation, I'm at a kid's level with electrics and this is what I can understand :oops: I did get myself a multimeter for the bike, but I still need to know how&what I use it for.
When I'm done with the bike, I'll have a drink for many people on this site, including Damir and you.

Folsoml: I don't think it's a carb problem since the strange noise is coming from the bottom part. Something there is not right. Plus, since I'm inside already, I can change the gaskets and other "consumables" that need to be changed. I also wanted to check overall condition and learn about it.
It's an old bike, needs love, I need to learn how to give it :lol:
Also, it's a therapy as well :wink:
'79 cb650z RC03

Spyug53
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Re: Starting from scratch :) tank&petcock questions

Postby Spyug53 » Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:16 pm

Mojo, If you can, you should pick up a copy of the Motorcycle Electrical Book by Tray Martin http://www.tracyamartin.com/WebPages/Or ... sPage.html

This is the best book I've found for explaining things clearly and simply. It will show you how to use the tools like the multimeter and helps in diagnosing a lot of electrical issues.

The other thing to do when working on a bike (or any project for that matter) is to consult Youtube for "how to vids". I have always found a visual demonstration to be extremely helpful in grasping a new skill.

As far as an aid to having folks help you diagnose a problem Youtube is great also. Post up a small vid and it can help us get a sense of what might be going on. So when you get her running do that and we might be able to tell you what the noise is.

Well I'll be following your progress from here on so don't worry, you are not alone in your project. I want to see you riding next spring and maybe someday Damir can bring me to Croatia and we can all ride together. Your coast roads look so beautiful.

Cheers
"Slowest beasts are always strongest and Manage to live the longest".
"If it's no Scottish, it's crap".


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