79 CB650 - Main Fuse Question + Starter Problems

[tim0cruz]

Hi Fellas, looking for some help. Questions first, then background after:
1. What should the main fuse amp rating be on a stock 79 CB650? I'm talking about the fuse that is housed under the plastic cover of the starter solenoid.
a) I see on multiple sites that it should be 30A, but on my bike it says "15A" - is this an aftermarket solenoid? See pic (white sticker on solenoid where fuse would be):
image by timmy_boy21, on Flickr
b) Is there a danger of running a 30A fuse if it says 15A?
2. I've noticed that my neutral light and oil light are not functioning - could this be related to my starting issues?
a) I also noticed that the starter solenoid engages, even when in gear with the clutch NOT pulled in...does that tell anyone anything?

Background:
I've got another thread going in this forum, but thought I should start a more specific one...forgive me and feel free to flame me if that's faux pas .

I recently bought a 1979 CB650 "Project" that I intend to rebuild from the frame up. I haven't been able to turn over the motor yet (let alone start) using the electric start, and as we all know, these lovely machines don't have kick starters . After much advice and research on this forum, I did the following:

I have confirmed that the engine turns freely by putting it in 5th gear, pulling in the clutch, rolling a few feet, and releasing the clutch. I'm able to continue pushing the bike with some effort with the clutch released.

With a freshly charged battery, pressing the start button only makes the solenoid click, with no noise from the actual starter motor. Bridging the solenoid does the same. I've bench tested the starter motor off the engine and jumping directly to the battery and it spins freely; I also tested it off the engine but attached to the solenoid/etc. - still spun freely, but once in the motor - no spin.

The teeth on the starter motor and the starter gear look fine, and I get free movement counterclockwise but resistance clockwise when moving the starter gear.

I assumed at this point it was a either a weak starter motor or worn brushes, and/or dirty connections, so I took the solenoid and starter motor off the bike and disassembled and cleaned. In the process, I noticed that the main fuse must have been barely hanging on, because I blinked and it split in half. Obviously I need to replace it, but on the solenoid itself it says "15A", but I notice everywhere else I look that it's listed as a 30A...

I'm going to wire in an in-line fuse holder with a blade fuse. Should I put in a 30A fuse, or a 15A fuse? And do you guys recommend the ATC ("regular") sized fuse for this application, or will an ATM ("mini") fuse work?

Once I get the correct fuse installed, I'll clean everything up and put it back together -- hopefully I'll hear the engine come to life...or at least turn over!

Thanks in advance for your help! Here's a pic of the ol' girl the day I got her:
IMG_4962 by timmy_boy21, on Flickr

[FordMan]

try pulling the wires on the clutch safety switch, if that disables the start then u know the switch might be stuck in the open/closed position. Its a place were crud can build up and muck up the switch.

I cant tell u about the fuse or rating, mine is replaced with a brass jumper lol, not safe i know, but i bought it that way, and i will address it this winter.

[Folsoml]

The fuse that should be on the solenoid on your bike is a 30 amp fuse. It is part number 98200-53000, and is available online for about 70 cents. Many people, myself included, have replaced the fuse in the OEM solenoid with an inline fuse and it works fine--just use a 30 amp fuse.

With regards to your bike starting while in gear, check your clutch and neutral switches. These are the switches that should prevent that from happening.

[tim0cruz]

FordMan - I'll inspect and clean that switch too - I get a feeling I'll be doing alot of inspecting and cleaning on this rebuild

Folsoml - thanks for confirming 30A. Why would the actual solenoid say "15A", is this the wrong solenoid for my bike? Does it matter?

I bought an inline fuse holder off Amazon that takes your standard ATC size fuse, but the holder itself is pretty big. Was thinking about switching to a mini-fuse (ATM) holder to try and keep it tidier - any risk in running a smaller sized fuse (but still 30A) and smaller gauge wire?

[Folsoml]

That solenoid does not appear to be all there. It looks like parts are missing, or, like you suspect, it is not for your bike at all. A lot of things happened to these bikes in the 35 years since they were new.

[MiGhost]

is this the wrong solenoid for my bike? Does it matter?

I bought an inline fuse holder off Amazon that takes your standard ATC size fuse, but the holder itself is pretty big. Was thinking about switching to a mini-fuse (ATM) holder to try and keep it tidier - any risk in running a smaller sized fuse (but still 30A) and smaller gauge wire?

That solenoid is not the correct one for the 650. It does not have the two wiring connectors for the safety cutout (which is why the bike will start in gear).

Make sure that what ever fuse holder that you choose is rated for 30 amp.

[tim0cruz]

Folsoml & MiGhost - the previous pic was taken when I cleaning all the connections. Here are some pics below of it reassembled with the new fuse holder installed (I know I've left alot of extra wire there...I just wanted to test the setup first and will trim later ):
image by timmy_boy21, on Flickr
image by timmy_boy21, on Flickr
image by timmy_boy21, on Flickr

Based on these pics - am I still missing any connectors/switch inputs?

Thanks for your help! As a small token of appreciation, enjoy a disassembled view of a 79 CB650 starter motor :
image by timmy_boy21, on Flickr

[Folsoml]

Thanks for your help! As a small token of appreciation, enjoy a disassembled view of a 79 CB650 starter motor :
image by timmy_boy21, on Flickr

Thanks! I'll hang it on my fridge!

[MiGhost]

Based on these pics - am I still missing any connectors/switch inputs?

That should work.

[tim0cruz]

Thanks again for all your help, fellas.

Update - On Monday, I was able to:
1. cleaned my carbon dust-filled starter motor and confirmed brushes were within spec (both ~10mm)
2. cleaned all contacts/wires along the path from the battery to the starter motor
3. cleaned a very dirty and greasy neutral switch (but still no neutral light)
4. cleaned (and fixed!) a faulty handlebar clutch switch
5. re-installed starter motor, solenoid, and hooked up a Shorai battery with resting 13.4v

I crossed my fingers, pulled in the clutch, and hit the starter button...same story. "CLICK." ::silence:: ...releases button... dull "bounceback" whir of what i assume is the starter clutch spinning back reacting to the torque from the motor.

I'm kinda at my wits end here considering I know the motor isn't locked up since it rolls in 5th gear, right?

At this point my options are to either 1. track down the electrical gremlins to the headlight/fuse holder/fuses/etc. just to try to hear the 'effing thing turn over, or 2. just start tearing the whole engine/bike down, which I intend to do regardless.

I welcome any advise/thoughts/feedback .

Lastly - 2 more questions:
1. What size wrench/bolt should I use to manually turn the drive shaft, either on the stator side or the the ignition side?
2. What is the connection to the oil pressure switch supposed to look like? My guess is what is pictured below isn't normal...there doesn't appear to be anything connected at all -- plus it looks like it was cut with a rusty spoon! My guess is this could be related to my lack of Neutral light...

how it looked once i took off the sprocket cover:
image by timmy_boy21, on Flickr

further inspection - wtf is going on with that hollow rubber insulator boot?!:
image by timmy_boy21, on Flickr

[FordMan]

I'm kinda at my wits end here considering I know the motor isn't locked up since it rolls in 5th gear, right?

I am not an experienced motorcycle mechanic, so take this with a grain of salt, but my auto experience tells me this, putting it in 5th gear and getting the tire to move would not mean for certain that the motor is not "Locked Up" it is possible that the clutch slipped enough that it feels like the motor is "Free"

Any engine with any decent amount of compression should put enough resistance on the engine to cause a clutch to slip will in 5th gear (this would be why u wouldnt clutch jump a car with a dead battery in 5th gear right.......right........just agree with me, im right.)

That 5th gear movement statement just doesnt seem like a statement that i would go by.

Now, my next question would be is there not a way to pull a side cover and use a socket to try and turn the motor over without the plugs in?

Or Put the bike on the center stand and simply remove the plugs and put the bike in first gear and try to turn the wheel by hand?

This wont prove compression, but you should be able to feel the pistons moving air by putting your finger by the plug hole, and it would prove its not "locked up"

[tim0cruz]

FordMan - I am far from an experienced mechanic myself, as evident by my incessant and numerous questions .

Good point re: the rolling in 5th gear/clutch slippage... I can certainly remove the ignition and/or stator cover - I was just hoping someone could tell me what sized socket to use on either side to actually turn the crankshaft... my socket set doesn't go up that high, so I'd need to buy one on its own.

Would I then try to turn it using a wrench/ratchet in 1st or 2nd gear? How much resistance should I feel?

I'll also try the removing the spark plugs and turn by hand... and maybe while I'm at it see if rolling in 5th gear spins the crankshaft once I have the covers off.

[FordMan]

FordMan - I am far from an experienced mechanic myself, as evident by my incessant and numerous questions .

Good point re: the rolling in 5th gear/clutch slippage... I can certainly remove the ignition and/or stator cover - I was just hoping someone could tell me what sized socket to use on either side to actually turn the crankshaft... my socket set doesn't go up that high, so I'd need to buy one on its own.

Would I then try to turn it using a wrench/ratchet in 1st or 2nd gear? How much resistance should I feel?

I'll also try the removing the spark plugs and turn by hand... and maybe while I'm at it see if rolling in 5th gear spins the crankshaft once I have the covers off.

Sorry I do not know if the motor has a spot to crank it over with a ratchet or what size that would be.
but if it does have one, I have turned over V8 engines with a socket and wrench, with plugs removed, and some even slowly and with a bit of effort with the plugs in.

You are best off to try and roll the engine over slowly with the trans in neutral if you are using the crank shaft to turn it over.

Resistance should be very little with the plugs out, with them in you should feel great resistance under compression stroke, but it should leak off slowly, until the next piston hits compression stroke. The pressure will leak past the rings and valves, rings seal much better and properly with combustion, and RPM, so dont worry.

[Folsoml]

I can certainly remove the ignition and/or stator cover - I was just hoping someone could tell me what sized socket to use on either side to actually turn the crankshaft... my socket set doesn't go up that high, so I'd need to buy one on its own.

Get a 14mm socket and turn the crank on the Rotor bolt. Do not use the 24mm bolt on the advancer because there are small bits in there that can be damaged.

Have you checked to see that the bulbs are not burned out on your neutral and oil lights?