why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

If it's broken or just needs tweaked

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Folsoml
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby Folsoml » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:13 am

ANY change in idle is an indicator of a leak. Maybe the leaks on the cool cylinders are more severe than the hot ones. This is good. At least we have a result we can work with. :D

What are you spraying on them?

Edit: I just re-read and saw you're using carb cleaner. Stay away from carb cleaner as it will eat away at rubber parts. Even for cleaning your carbs, don't use it. Use brake cleaner spray instead.
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:20 am

Folsoml wrote:ANY change in idle is an indicator of a leak. Maybe the leaks on the cool cylinders are more severe than the hot ones. This is good. At least we have a result we can work with. :D

What are you spraying on them?

Edit: I just re-read and saw you're using carb cleaner. Stay away from carb cleaner as it will eat away at rubber parts. Even for cleaning your carbs, don't use it. Use brake cleaner spray instead.


thanks. I changed the boots tho to check that theory. no change. Ill fix boots and go from there.
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GeorgeSweety
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby GeorgeSweety » Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:38 am

Well at least you can rule out your valves and timing for now :) hopefully fixing your boots may get her to fire on all four.

Folsoml, I use carb cleaner on my carbs after I strip them down, I like to soak the jets and emulsion tubes in the stuff before they get in the ultrasonic cleaner. I've heard about it destroying rubber before so I've always been wary of the stuff.

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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby Riche » Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:24 pm

Folsoml wrote:Image

What are these wires going to? Is it an inline fuse holder with a 30A fuse? If not, it should be. This is not the cause of your trouble (no matter what they go to), but it is something that will need tending eventually. It originally came with a 30A blade fuse, but these cannot usually be found at your local auto parts store, so when they blow, people will replace them with all kinds of things--quite often a simple piece of wire.

GeorgeSweety wrote:Folsoml, I see what you are getting at with the sync screws, but I was under the impression that jj had bench synced the carbs. BTW, I've never got on with those dial gauges :x too damn jittery for my liking, even with the dampers!


The dampers work like a charm for me. Dial them until the needles are just barely moving and adjust the carbs appropriately.


I would imagine the red wire goes from 1 side of the fuse to the other..
To his actual problem, it clearly not compression. So it’s either spark or fuel. The timing he’s checking wouldn’t make any difference imho. If it’s good for 2 cylinders then it’s ok for 4.
So does he have spark on 1 and 3? If he does then it’s a fueling issue ( that’s where my money is)..

Rich

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Folsoml
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby Folsoml » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:28 am

Riche wrote:
I would imagine the red wire goes from 1 side of the fuse to the other..


It does. I was trying to make sure there WAS a fuse there, and someone had not just put a piece of wire there instead of a fuse.

Folsoml wrote:What are these wires going to? Is it an inline fuse holder with a 30A fuse? If not, it should be. This is not the cause of your trouble (no matter what they go to)
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MEHall
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby MEHall » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:15 pm

Riche wrote:
Folsoml wrote:Image

What are these wires going to? Is it an inline fuse holder with a 30A fuse? If not, it should be. This is not the cause of your trouble (no matter what they go to), but it is something that will need tending eventually. It originally came with a 30A blade fuse, but these cannot usually be found at your local auto parts store, so when they blow, people will replace them with all kinds of things--quite often a simple piece of wire.

GeorgeSweety wrote:Folsoml, I see what you are getting at with the sync screws, but I was under the impression that jj had bench synced the carbs. BTW, I've never got on with those dial gauges :x too damn jittery for my liking, even with the dampers!


The dampers work like a charm for me. Dial them until the needles are just barely moving and adjust the carbs appropriately.


I would imagine the red wire goes from 1 side of the fuse to the other..
To his actual problem, it clearly not compression. So it’s either spark or fuel. The timing he’s checking wouldn’t make any difference imho. If it’s good for 2 cylinders then it’s ok for 4.
So does he have spark on 1 and 3? If he does then it’s a fueling issue ( that’s where my money is)..

Rich



I can say is there a fuse somewhere on that red wire you dont have to worry though- :wink:
If the spark plugs are black the jets in carbs is to big, gives to much fuel, and if they are wet also somthing is seriously off. :roll:
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:08 pm

Folsoml wrote:
juntjoo wrote:https://youtu.be/fmDOpBsPO38

quick 1 min vid. vac gauges all fluttering


Did your tune kit not come with dampers? If these are in the tube between the carbs and the gauges, you can make adjustments to minimize the flutter of the needles

Image

You mention the "idle screws." You say they don't do anything. To what screws are you referring, and what is the outcome you are seeking? Are you talking about the sync screws between the carbs bodies?

When you are checking the non-working cylinders, is it always at normal idle? Have you tried revving up to about 3000 Rpms and seeing if the pipes heat up then (remember the fan)?

Have you tried what George suggested above?

Lastly, you mention 'digging in there" as the camera pointed to the engine (the rapid movement was hard to watch). Don't do anything to the engine just yet. I don't think your problem is in there.


you were right! I'll be back.... :D
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:15 am

here I repair my boots with "shellac":

https://youtu.be/RVi0azcrdgg

re-clean my jets and swap parts of working cylinders with non-firing ones:

https://youtu.be/IlXlZ-MDpG4

and finally I test it out with great results, kinda...

https://youtu.be/P4_whWa3Tjk

key things:

something between "shellackin'" boots &
torching jets(producing smoke from both 1&3 slow jets particularly),
got 1&3 cylinders started firing. But...
fuel overflowed into vent line &
engine idled really high and threatened to automatically redline til I killed it
floats, I only swapped them between carbs.
and now it won't start. so that's it. thanks
Last edited by juntjoo on Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
82" cb650 Nighthawk

juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:28 pm

So I can start it if I take out a plug or two and torch them real quick, but engine is idling high and wants to die and is smoking from bottom of engine and pipes, where there is a lot of condensation.

no more overflow into the vent lines(good thing I used transparent tubing!)

at this point I can't really do anything with timing or idle, unless someone helps me, perhaps jist to put either in a safe starting point.

what do I do with the idle knob? when I turned it all the way in at a certain point as if it uncovered a hole it rapidly increased idle speed, so I backed it out but it seemed to go on for infinity, so now it's somewhere in deep space and I don't know where to put it but I know back close it just makes the problem worse.

the slow jets I torched I highly doubt have opened more than they were made to as after cleaning them I only noticed the E wire having less resistance on the 1&3, the ones that smoked when torched, but no MORE open than 2&4, just a really good smooth fit. The primary jets, didn't have a perfect probing wire to gauge their size but I just torched them the same. Although I'm thinking a swapping of these with the brand new replacements from my rebuild package is in order here but have heard stock jets are best to keep if possible, + it'll be a pain to go back in there. Although, if I do you can do it while carbs installed no? Just need slim fingers and small tools right?

Otherwise is there anything else anyone can think of?
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GeorgeSweety
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby GeorgeSweety » Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:50 pm

Sorry dude but you really lost me on that last post, I'm no longer sure where we are at with regards to fixing this bike. You need compression, fuel and spark, find a problem then eliminate each one, not all of them at the same time. Eliminate compression problem, eliminate fuel problem, eliminate spark problem, problem solved! Don't mess about with all of them at the same time or you are going to chase your tail!
Last edited by GeorgeSweety on Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:14 pm

GeorgeSweety wrote:Sorry dude but you really lost me on that last post, I'm no longer sure where we are at with regards to fixing this bike. You need compression, fuel and spark, find a problem then eliminate each one, not all of them at the same time. Eliminate compression problem, eliminate fuel problem, eliminate spark problem, problem solved! Don't fuck about with all of them at the same time or you are going to chase your tail!


Well, I had to take the carbs back out and try something else, so logically I thought to make the best of my time by trying as many different things to save myself extra trips into the carbs, especially as my purpose was to fix the vacuum leaks using the shellac which might not like to be played with after using, so I torched my jets and swapped the parts around, bad to good, good to bad. I thought that was a wise move on my part. And I got all four cylinders firing from this, but unfortunately I didn't have the godly powers to stop this new problem from surfacing. Thanks for your help but don't stress yourself out please
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:17 pm

I'll figure it out anyway, I'm a lot closer now. I just need this crash course in the basics
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Folsoml
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby Folsoml » Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:25 pm

What do you mean when you say you "torched" something?

George is dead on accurate. Try one thing and see what happens. Do not chase your tail.
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:26 pm

Folsoml wrote:What do you mean when you say you "torched" something?

George is dead on accurate. Try one thing and see what happens. Do not chase your tail.


okay, what did I do? I put a torch to the brass jets and goo'ed up the boots. That's too much? Well I can replace them with brand new ones(aftermarket) without taking the carbs out. And swapping parts, well if it were the floats or something with the jets then putting them on the good cylinders 2&4 would have caused THEM to suddenly stop firing, which didn't happen, so I just reinforced the boots and cleaned the jets, two things I believe it was suggested I do....

Anyway, I was able to get all firing which is awesome despite this turning out to be more difficult than I'd hoped for so a couple problems down, hopefully just one more left. Probably the jets or floats, so I'll access them with the carbs still on. Maybe while changing the floats to other carbs idk, a piece of something got between the float valve and it's seat. Would explain the fuel getting into the vent lines. So I'll I'll do that next, new jets and recheck floats. BTW they were all .59" where book calls for .61". Pretty specific number there. Book didn't state range around that spec you can fall so IDK, but they all appear to operate uniformally and as they're supposed to. We'll see.
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juntjoo
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Re: why would pipes #1 & 3 be cool?

Postby juntjoo » Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:37 pm

and thanks again guys for your help despite my frustrating ineptitude. lol, I'm not exactly sure the nature of it and honestly if it's all me, my inexperience and or the fact that I'm trying to get 30 something year old bike running, but gimme a little break. I'm probably one of the less mechanically capable people that should be doing this stuff but that's okay, its not as pretty to watch me work vs others but it's good when people try stuff. I'll probably get a bit better at it and in time have some words of wisdom for others if you'd believe. Soon we should find out something interesting that causes a bike to stop firing on two cylinders then the fuel to overflow and things to get smokey. Probably just the rider/wannabe mechanic, either way should be a good lesson. And I won't dissappear in shame. I'll conclude this thread
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