Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

If it's broken or just needs tweaked

Moderators: Volker_P, tidd650

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:37 pm

https://youtu.be/CFax71WIKWc

Anyone have experience or just a tip on what I can do here?
82" cb650 Nighthawk

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:08 pm

9mm ID/10mm OD https://imgur.com/a/zuCEeBA

If I'd been the one who took it apart it I'd know if these oil dowel pins are original. I'm going to imagine so and that in fact I'm supposed to press them in by tightening down the whole thing but I don't know for sure. Maybe I have them upside down? If I remember correctly one pin was already in the block and I just put the other one in to fit the same way and it just easilly fit in. I remember it was tapered, or stepped down in diameter and I put the smaller side in. I think I'll need a special tool to remove them at this point. Already scuffed one up a bit too much. Are these supposed to be pressed I tight as heck? Are the block and head supposed to fit easily or require pressing the pins in?
82" cb650 Nighthawk

cb650
Posts: 2958
Joined: Fri Mar 03, 2006 7:20 am
Location: Denver CO USA
Contact:

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby cb650 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 4:53 pm

if mine bought apart I would remove them any way possible and get new. Sounds like a PO fucd something up
Did you clean the tank out?!?!?!?!

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:07 pm

cb650 wrote:if mine bought apart I would remove them any way possible and get new. Sounds like a PO fucd something up


No I figured it out. The "PO" was me putting these "oil control valves" in upside down.

http://partstream.arinet.com/Mobile/UT9 ... X92A1.html

Supposed to be narrow end up, I put them down. Figures. With narrow end up they wouldn't hit against the holes. Anyway, I pressed them I pretty good trying to get them in(the wrong way) so I'm open to suggestions for grabbing the heads of these little guys. Best I've tried are a pair of pliers with electrical tape for protection but no go. Maybe I should buy one of those Irwin vice grip pliers? What's the strongest tool/method of getting around something that small(without damaging)?
82" cb650 Nighthawk

User avatar
GeorgeSweety
Posts: 334
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:47 am
Location: UK.

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby GeorgeSweety » Tue Nov 13, 2018 12:48 am

Hi JJ, carefully heat the alloy casing with a blow lamp, then they should twist out a lot easier. Try to keep the flame on the alloy, it will expand faster than the steel oil valves. Don't heat it so much that you melt the damn thing! :lol:

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:24 am

GeorgeSweety wrote:Hi JJ, carefully heat the alloy casing with a blow lamp, then they should twist out a lot easier. Try to keep the flame on the alloy, it will expand faster than the steel oil valves. Don't heat it so much that you melt the damn thing! :lol:



Duh! I knew there was a good idea out there beyond my simple brain. Thanks. I will try that...
82" cb650 Nighthawk

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Tue Nov 13, 2018 3:42 pm

Mission completed https://imgur.com/a/7Q81sYW

Thanks. Heat, lube, tenacity and CARE & PATIENCE (for future REFERENCE I'm finding does many the job.

Had to use a oversized tap. Did min damage inside. Outside scores sanded. Valves still function where they need to. Everything fits.

Def got some debris in the engine after all this. Should I completely flush it out? If so I'm noticing the drain plug right at the bottom but I can still see where stuff could end up around the hole inside(along with oil filter cover).
82" cb650 Nighthawk

User avatar
Volker_P
Posts: 5347
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:53 am
Location: southern Germany

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby Volker_P » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:38 am

I also thought of cutting a thread and pull it out but I did not want to propose that because of the filings.
Because I am not sure if you get them out with the engine in the frame.
These (calibrated) nozzles are really important for the oil supply of the head and camshaft bearings!
If one of them they gets plugged, your camshaft will seize and crash the head, too.
If you want to flush something -which is probably a very good idea- then ... :roll: ... without the nozzles!
Do I understand correctly that you already reassembled the engine?
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:54 am

Volker_P wrote:I also thought of cutting a thread and pull it out but I did not want to propose that because of the filings.
Because I am not sure if you get them out with the engine in the frame.
These (calibrated) nozzles are really important for the oil supply of the head and camshaft bearings!
If one of them they gets plugged, your camshaft will seize and crash the head, too.
If you want to flush something -which is probably a very good idea- then ... :roll: ... without the nozzles!
Do I understand correctly that you already reassembled the engine?



Yes, I stacked on all the parts. Half tightened the bolts. About to install the cam. What did you mean flush WITHOUT the nozzles? To have the passages clear, or more clear first? Well I doubt anything got under them as I removed them. The holes in the valves are very small. And I cleaned them out before reinstalling them
82" cb650 Nighthawk

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:44 pm

Head bolt stripping at 10 lbs/sf? https://imgur.com/a/iFO3G1v

This is a situation I've been in many a time. How do you know when you're stripping threads torqing bolts? Book calls for 17-22 lb/sf and it has stayed at about 10 for a bit too long for my comfort. There's always part of me that says 'just keep going, it's made to handle over 22lb/ft. You're almost there, don't quit!' and I don't trust that voice 100%
82" cb650 Nighthawk

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Thu Nov 15, 2018 1:17 pm

juntjoo wrote:Head bolt stripping at 10 lbs/sf? https://imgur.com/a/iFO3G1v

This is a situation I've been in many a time. How do you know when you're stripping threads torqing bolts? Book calls for 17-22 lb/sf and it has stayed at about 10 for a bit too long for my comfort. There's always part of me that says 'just keep going, it's made to handle over 22lb/ft. You're almost there, don't quit!' and I don't trust that voice 100%



It's definitely getting stuck too early. Strange. These long bolts have a long way down to the threaded hole. You'd think it'd be pretty difficult to strip the threads. Well I would.

Been looking online for some type of tap extension. Found individual long taps but very expensive. Trying to avoid having to take it all apart again. SOW, you gotta get new gaskets each time right? Well at least if you don't want to take chance of any resulting leaks right? Or is the possibility not THAT likely?

Anyway, unless anyone comes up with a better plan I think I'll try retapping the hole with the bolts themselves, different ones to avoid possibility one catches the thread in hole wrong. Maybe torch the bolt first, oil, then rethread? I'll say I turned the bolt a good few times with the torque wrench @ 10 lb/sf. Idk. Hopefully it's just a false alarm...
82" cb650 Nighthawk

User avatar
Volker_P
Posts: 5347
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:53 am
Location: southern Germany

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby Volker_P » Fri Nov 16, 2018 5:38 am

Sorry that I have to say this but your proceeding is inappropriate.

You assume there are no filings in the channels from cutting the threads, you think the head bolt threads down there in the case are not stripped (they are easily stripped BTW) etc.
This means you know nothing for sure and just hope things will work because you want them to be that simple.
Be sure they are not! There is a reason why good workshops are hard to find and many people have bad workshop experiences.
One key advantage of doing things yourself is that you can take all the time you need to be sure that things are as they should be.
Cleaning everything carefully is usually a very good idea because you sometimes notice strange or bad things during that.
These engines are close to forty years old and most of them have been opened at some time since them by somebody with or without knowledge.

I'd say if you really want to continue like that you will soon find out all this is a waste of time and money.

I strongly recommend to leave the engine alone for a while, do something completely different and think about how to continue.
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Fri Nov 16, 2018 9:59 am

Volker_P wrote:Sorry that I have to say this but your proceeding is inappropriate.

You assume there are no filings in the channels from cutting the threads, you think the head bolt threads down there in the case are not stripped (they are easily stripped BTW) etc.
This means you know nothing for sure and just hope things will work because you want them to be that simple.
Be sure they are not! There is a reason why good workshops are hard to find and many people have bad workshop experiences.
One key advantage of doing things yourself is that you can take all the time you need to be sure that things are as they should be.
Cleaning everything carefully is usually a very good idea because you sometimes notice strange or bad things during that.
These engines are close to forty years old and most of them have been opened at some time since them by somebody with or without knowledge.

I'd say if you really want to continue like that you will soon find out all this is a waste of time and money.

I strongly recommend to leave the engine alone for a while, do something completely different and think about how to continue.


Thanks. Any feedback is good. Unfortunately there no one but myself to work on this bike. I've called everywhere. So that is my situation. And yes I've got a lot of hope. I did retap that hole and removed the head and block to do so. Now I'm currently trying to figure out how to get the chain on cam sprocket. Once up and running, with God's blessing, I'll clean it out thoroughly. I'll look into but I'm thinking lots of oil and turning the crankshaft manually. Accepting any tips, but I won't be sitting this one out
82" cb650 Nighthawk

User avatar
Volker_P
Posts: 5347
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:53 am
Location: southern Germany

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby Volker_P » Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:52 am

I did not say you can't do it. But you need a different approach.
You have to be sure that there is nothing inside that can cause further damage before you start the engine. No need to preliminarily put it together and see if it runs. This is no prototype but a proven engine. You will gain nothing doing so but you risk to crash parts that are still intact now.
So the most recommendable starting point is
juntjoo wrote: I'll clean it out thoroughly.

Then see how things look like and put them together again.
Cleaning means taking things apart and blowing them through with compressed air and so on. Turning the crankshaft manually at cold engine will probably do nothing at all. In the worst case it will distribute debris and stuff to places you don't know and most probably to somewhere where you don't like to have it at all. But be sure this will happen at the latest when the engine is warm and revs up.

Installing the cam chain tensioner may be a bit tricky, see: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=74

Mounting he cam chain:
The cam chain tensioner is pressed back completely e.g. with a screwdriver and fixed in that position with the 10mm headnut at the rear of the cylinder block. Then the chain is lifted on the sprocket and finally the sprocket is put on the cam. If the timing does not fit, remove sprocket from cam, lift chain links over sprocket teeth lift sprocket back on the cam. Verify timing with the chain under tension at the front side. If you are quite sure that it fits, turn in a cam sprocket bolt, release cam chain tensioner nut, turn engine forward to install second sprocket bolt and then turn engine a few times to check cam chain timing again. If all right carefully torque sprocket bolts, I've seen cams with cracked threads! Then adjust cam chain tension.
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

juntjoo
Posts: 288
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 6:19 pm

Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:38 am

Volker_P wrote:I did not say you can't do it. But you need a different approach.
You have to be sure that there is nothing inside that can cause further damage before you start the engine. No need to preliminarily put it together and see if it runs. This is no prototype but a proven engine. You will gain nothing doing so but you risk to crash parts that are still intact now.
So the most recommendable starting point is
juntjoo wrote: I'll clean it out thoroughly.

Then see how things look like and put them together again.
Cleaning means taking things apart and blowing them through with compressed air and so on. Turning the crankshaft manually at cold engine will probably do nothing at all. In the worst case it will distribute debris and stuff to places you don't know and most probably to somewhere where you don't like to have it at all. But be sure this will happen at the latest when the engine is warm and revs up.

Installing the cam chain tensioner may be a bit tricky, see: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=74

Mounting he cam chain:
The cam chain tensioner is pressed back completely e.g. with a screwdriver and fixed in that position with the 10mm headnut at the rear of the cylinder block. Then the chain is lifted on the sprocket and finally the sprocket is put on the cam. If the timing does not fit, remove sprocket from cam, lift chain links over sprocket teeth lift sprocket back on the cam. Verify timing with the chain under tension at the front side. If you are quite sure that it fits, turn in a cam sprocket bolt, release cam chain tensioner nut, turn engine forward to install second sprocket bolt and then turn engine a few times to check cam chain timing again. If all right carefully torque sprocket bolts, I've seen cams with cracked threads! Then adjust cam chain tension.


Thanks. Ours look the same but maybe mines a bit different as I wasn't able to do that method, chain on sprocket then sprocket on cam shaft. From the different online manuals I've seen in here(internet, other forums) the only other method that worked for me was put in one sprocket bolt, then the chain as much as possible, then crank/force it over to get the holes aligned for the last sprocket bolt. That worked for me. The other way didn't. Too tight. Not enough chain slack.

My tensioner turned out to be where it's supposed to luckily. So no need to disturb the gaskets again.

Anyway, got chain on but not with correct timing so tomorrow will tackle this next puzzle. Then I'll get at on that surgical cleaning procedure. I was wondering about turning the crank shaft over and moving debris into the wrong places. So I'll just run fresh oil through a couple times. Should be at largest some rtv crumbs. Got a lot of good sludge from the oil pan and the strainer.

I keep remembering how well it was running before I ran into problems and this engine only has 7k miles so I'm optimistic if I finish up these last steps we'll be in a good place after all the struggles I've had with this bike and local mechanics lol. It's like we're meant for a closer relationship than I expected. Had I decided to do the valve job in the first place I'd been better off and never would have had to get down to the crankshaft. But it's good I got down there now and got a good Lil bit more experience under my belt. Open to any more tips. Thanks.
82" cb650 Nighthawk


Return to “Technical Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 27 guests