Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

If it's broken or just needs tweaked

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Volker_P
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby Volker_P » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:32 am

juntjoo wrote: From the different online manuals I've seen in here(internet, other forums) the only other method that worked for me was put in one sprocket bolt, then the chain as much as possible, then crank/force it over to get the holes aligned for the last sprocket bolt. That worked for me. The other way didn't. Too tight. Not enough chain slack.

This is why you should press back the tensioner rail and fix it with the tensioner bolt. Lots of slack afterwards. Force should not be required there and chains do not like that.

juntjoo wrote: So I'll just run fresh oil through a couple times. Should be at largest some rtv crumbs. Got a lot of good sludge from the oil pan and the strainer. .

Your problem is that your possible debris from drilling/cutting the nozzle thread is behind the oil filter but in front of the nozzle and cam bearings.
So if it moves, it only can move to a bad place! Only chance is that there is nothing or that it does not move.
But this is kinda wishful thinking, not a safe plan. Moreover it would be a pity to crash an engine like that
juntjoo wrote:.. before I ran into problems and this engine only has 7k miles ...

more or less wilfully. Please show some mercy!
If I were next to you I would give you an older, nice running engine for that and rebuild this one carefully.

BTW, no need for more fullquotes. :wink:
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:31 pm

I've only got a button to reply to you volker cuz I'm on my phone maybe(ref. full quotes).

I've done my best with the tensioner and I don't feel like anything is pressing against it. I tightened the bolt after using a screw driver to press the tensioner in as far as possible. So I don't know about that or why this chain is so tight. I wish if indeed there was an easier way to get it on I could figure it out. After taking it off coming up here I'll play some more with the tensioner slack the best I can and see if I missed something. Maybe it's just a matter of a millimeter of space I need to recompress it.

I don't know what the "nozzle" thread is. Sorry. I re-tapped a main cylinder bolt hole, front right-middle. I did so right at its location on top of the crankcase and carefully removed the shavings from the surface without allowing anything to drop into the crank case. Otherwise there are shavings in the hole which goes...? No where right? if goes into the crankcase it would just fall out down there where I have access now.

Hey volker, what is that weird looking ufo bolt with a big washer and gasket you have in your linked thread pics you have screwed into the cylinder head cover rocker arm adjustment cover bolt hole? I have it(keep in mind I didn't dismantle it last) in my parts pile and I don't recall ever seeing it and don't believe it goes where you have it pictured but apparently it does(?). Last I recall hex bolts bolt the covers down. Confused
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Thu Nov 22, 2018 5:33 pm

Hmm... I keep learning how less I know about how these parts work than I thought I knew before. Somehow I'm not getting enough chain slack and I won't be forcing it as I had before. I'm thinking I gotta get back down there and adjust the tensioner unless I can figure out another way with it all together. I'll keeping trying /researching...
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Thu Nov 22, 2018 6:50 pm

No I got it. One sec...
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Thu Nov 22, 2018 7:27 pm

https://youtu.be/ujbteAJ6rTo

Looks perfect. Apparently having the bike on the center stand gave me that little bit of slack I needed to get it on. If you notice anything off let me know. I'll be cleaning up the surfaces then flush it out with clean oil then throw on the cover and start checking the clearances...
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby Volker_P » Fri Nov 23, 2018 2:31 am

juntjoo wrote:I don't know what the "nozzle" thread is. ...

On the cylinder bottom level you squeezed one of the calibrated nozzles for head oil supply. You did not get it out easily so you cut a thread and pulled it out. For sure debris from that work fell down into the hole below. This "hole" is the oil supply line for the camshaft and the part you pulled out is decisive for proper oil flow to the camshaft. Now you have some alumina stuff below that nozzle (I hope you got at least a new nozzle, did you?) waiting to choke the nozzle or go through it into the camshaft bearings. Both are no good options.

juntjoo wrote:Sorry. I re-tapped a main cylinder bolt hole, front right-middle. I did so right at its location on top of the crankcase and carefully removed the shavings from the surface without allowing anything to drop into the crank case. Otherwise there are shavings in the hole which goes...? No where right? if goes into the crankcase it would just fall out down there where I have access now.

I agree that re-cutting the head bolt thread does not require much worry because this stuff still has to pass the oil strainer and oil filter.

So I don't worry about that but the "results" from drilling and pulling the cylinder block oil nozzle are critical!
I would not assemble and start the engine like that.

juntjoo wrote:Hey volker, what is that weird looking ufo bolt with a big washer and gasket you have in your linked thread pics you have screwed into the cylinder head cover rocker arm adjustment cover bolt hole?.

You should have two of these "weird looking ufo bolts" in the central valve cover, too, don't you? :lol:
Often they just stick with the cover (which is not bad for installation) and probably this is why you did not recognize them yet. The Z-model (and I think the 1979, too) shown in the link has different side valve covers that require center cover bolts for both side valve covers, too, so four more of these bolts in this case. The advantage of these bolts is that one cannot easily replace them by prettier but too long bolts that block the rocker arms. :wink:

juntjoo wrote:Apparently having the bike on the center stand gave me that little bit of slack I needed to get it on.

I would not blame the center stand. For sure the cam chain did not sit properly on the cankshaft before or it might have been jammed between crankshaft and tensioner or crankshaft and case. I remember that it was not that easy to get the chain properly on the crankshaft down there in the dark depths of the engine. If you need force at completely pushed back tensioner, something is wrong down there for sure.
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Fri Nov 23, 2018 9:27 am

Ah, THAT nozzle, the "oil control valve". Well I put a wire through it. I highly doubt there anything in there. At most I scuffed up the top of it. I imagine it functions to pass oil through the middle and seal the hole within which it fits and if that's it both nozzles should operate just fine. Tell me about that nozzle, as I don't know how that system works. Is the passage air tight? I assume there's a pump of some sort down there (?) that gets oil up to the ends of the cam shaft (?). Oh you were saying debris getting under the nozzle in the passage. Can I test this system by turning the crankshaft with the head cover off?

And that ufo bolt. Thanks. I remember now where it goes. Just one for me I guess since I have one cam, right in the middle of the cover.

And yes, that chain was somehow slightly bent taking some slack which I can only assume was from having it on the kickstand rather than center stand as I was only finally able to get it on the sprocket, with a little help from a pry bar, right after putting it on the center stand.
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:54 pm

Exhaust gaskets https://imgur.com/a/9GRmX7S

Are these reusable? They're flattened out from previous use but I'm wondering if I can tighten them in a couple times after heating them up after running the engine.
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 7:56 pm

Latest progress

https://youtu.be/83opb_gAtXU

I think putting that tach gear back in fixed the weak combustion.
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 8:13 pm

Mystery part https://imgur.com/a/fTgQWLk

This is on the right rear foot peg. It was on there. Whether I put it there previously in error or not I couldn't say bit it appears it could fit under that spring there tho I don't recall ever removing that spring to take it off in the first place.
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby juntjoo » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:09 pm

https://youtu.be/-TeIOnVlk5U

Thanks for the help! Not much here. Just a little vid of it getting started. It was better off than I expected, and I did a decent job putting it back together. No leaks (yet). But I am missing a couple of those copper washers on the cylinder head cover. If anyone knows what that little plate was let me k ow otherwise one day something will fall off and I'll know. Now I can go to the store and get some food then start fixing my washer then wash some clothes and leave the house lol. I love this bike! Today. I'm no noobie anymore!
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby GeorgeSweety » Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:33 am

juntjoo wrote:Mystery part https://imgur.com/a/fTgQWLk

This is on the right rear foot peg. It was on there. Whether I put it there previously in error or not I couldn't say bit it appears it could fit under that spring there tho I don't recall ever removing that spring to take it off in the first place.


Hi jj, the plate bolts on to the back of the rear right footrest and locks over the rear brake spring pin located on the alloy footrest bracket. It is just a safety clip that prevents the brake pedal return spring from sliding off the mounting peg.

rear footrest plate 001.JPG
rear footrest plate 001.JPG (117.34 KiB) Viewed 5067 times

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Volker_P
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Re: Having an issue seating the cylinder block.

Postby Volker_P » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:10 am

juntjoo wrote:Ah, THAT nozzle, the "oil control valve". Well I put a wire through it. I highly doubt there anything in there. At most I scuffed up the top of it. I imagine it functions to pass oil through the middle and seal the hole within which it fits and if that's it both nozzles should operate just fine. Tell me about that nozzle, as I don't know how that system works. Is the passage air tight? I assume there's a pump of some sort down there (?) that gets oil up to the ends of the cam shaft (?).

You can find a nice scheme of the engine oil circuit on page 2-0 in the online manual linked in my signature. The nozzle is easy to find there.

juntjoo wrote: Oh you were saying debris getting under the nozzle in the passage.

Correct.

juntjoo wrote: Can I test this system by turning the crankshaft with the head cover off?

Test what? You know that it is free now as tested by the wire.
But it might get blocked at higher revs and temperatures during riding. No chance to notice that before it is too late.

Oil pressure at camchain bearings is essential. No risk or gamble there!
Only way to be safe is to tear it apart and clean it out. Possibly this even means splitting the crankcase.
These are the facts. Unpleasant but facts.
This is the reason why I wrote earlier above:
Volker_P wrote:I also thought of cutting a thread and pull it out but I did not want to propose that because of the filings.

Before you start something that you suppose to be a good idea and a quick fix it is no waste of time to think for a while about possible consequences.
I saw too many problems solved on the cost of causing a much worse one which was however ignored or rationalised away.

Contrary to a certain popularity, engines consistently tend to ignore alternative facts completely and just bust if oil pressure is missing at a crucial point.

juntjoo wrote:... It was better off than I expected, and I did a decent job putting it back together. ...

You put it together and started the engine without checking whether you have debris at an essential location even though you had the hint. So I'd rather say you "got it together somehow" and now you are proud like hell.
But this engine repair thing is not about what you need and want but it is about what the engine requires.
So I think there are good reasons to for a different opinion to this statement:
juntjoo wrote: I'm no noobie anymore!
Cosky's great (free) online manual: http://cosky0.tripod.com

forum links to common technical issues

If you really like this site and you would not like to see it vanish soon, have a look there: Urgent: Future of HondaCB650.com Forum


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