The saga continues...

If it's broken or just needs tweaked

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bandwidth69
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The saga continues...

Postby bandwidth69 » Thu Jan 18, 2007 3:22 pm

Hi guys! Been away for a while over christmas and the new year, sounds ominous but I have not been locked up anywhere - promise (except in the garage)! News: Got myself a very useable rear grab rail on e-bay for my 650Z. As you all know, getting hold of one is an achievment in itself. i'v waited two years for one to come up (including buying a completely useless US spec one for my trouble) and am well happy. A local garage is letting me buy some brilliant hex (or allen key) bolts of various sizes as and when I replace the old ones on my bike. They've helped me out with the re-build of my brake calipers too. I'm still not having any luck with these brakes of mine. Over the Christmas holidays i discovered that my lovely stainless steel brake line set was losing hydraulic fluid from the master cylinder and worse - was drawing in air back into the system quicker than I was trying to bleed it out!. So I'm using the original rubber hose setup from my donor bike. This has created a whole heap of trouble...

My 650's brake calipers as I wrote in a previous posting were basically scrap. But, with a bit of home cooking I manage to salvage them. I bought a brake kit from dave silver with new pins and seals, bleed nipples etc and set about the re-build. No problems - everything went ok. The only thing I had to ponder on was the fact that I had to somehow reverse my intentional vandalism. I confess i had to drill both calipers to get the pins out - as they had welded themselves in. Its not that bad really. Provided the holes are the right size you can get away with it. There isn't any pin "rattle" with mine anyway and the clips do a good job of keeping them snug in the caliper where they belong. Well...that's the case if you don't have a caliper with the inspection plate bolt sheared off inside it. I had not noticed before I started this job - but my calipers were missing the inspection plate/cover. The reason? The small bolt which secures the plate in place had been sheared off...on both of them! That explained why the pins were as stuck as they were. They had been hammered in to keep them from slipping out. The circli that keeps the pins in place was just for show as it actually did nothing. In fact, on one side, the square shaped circlip had been replaced by two small split pins! They weren't actually doing anything mechanical at all! I think they were there to satisfy the MOT inspector or something. So I had to get both holes re-drilled and a new thread cut. Because, without the pressure fit of the guide pins into the caliper to keep them still - the pins can move freely. To stop them you need the square circlip in place - but the clip is only any good if you have the inspection plate in place to keep it from moving! Once the calipers had been drilled and a couple of caliper covers found - I was on the way!

or so I thought!

My stainless hoses were letting in air. I was getting no pressure from the master cylinder, not even when I replaced it with a second master cylinder from a Suzuki that I KNEW worked! Replacing the brake line was the only option left - as I began the job - that's when I noticed a spot of weeping from the line where it goes into the resevoir. I found the old rubber ones from the donor - cleaned them usp as best I could and tried again. This is where I had a cry. Not a weep - but a manly tear - as I discovered that I would have to take the handlebars off. Yes...the chuffing handlebars!!! Mine aren't originals. The rubber brake hose is shorter than its stainless counterpart and as such demands to be closer to the headstock than it has been when the stainless ones were fitted. So now I'm swapping bars and cursing the day the thread sheared on the left caliper. Because that's what started all this in the first place! When the new bars are on, I'll be able to start again and se what happens! I'll keep you posted! By the way - I'm loving every minute of it!!! :D :D :D
i dont watch big brother

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Ibsen
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Postby Ibsen » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:04 pm

You are a true enthusiast. :D

Btw, did you see the grab rail and the side covers that was up for sale on EBay UK a few days back?

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Volker_P
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Re: The saga continues...

Postby Volker_P » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:33 am

Impressing. Sounds like you really don't give up early. These are just the things that generate identificaion with your bike.
I already hesitate a bit to wish you more luck as I fear you might get bored when everything just fits ... :D

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Postby pae » Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:21 am

Sounds like fun... in many ways it's enjoyable doing things like this when there is no great pressure to get it finished.

When you're working on a car or bike that you need finished to get you to work in the morning small problems become a real drag. When you know you can just put it down and come back later you actually get more done AND you enjoy it because there is no pressure.

Keep it going.

regards, Phil

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bandwidth69
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Postby bandwidth69 » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:19 am

Iv been on constant alert for a grab rail for ages now - its going to be hard resisting that search option on e-bay. However its interesting to note that subtle differences in the keywords you use make all the difference. In the UK if you type "honda cb650" you get double the results in return than if you typed "honda CB 650". Also, if you have the patience to look - typing in "honda cb" gives you anything and everything cb related. I'ts also worth noting that if you can identify the parts you need from another bike - to look there too. Like brake calipers etc. Ben bidding on some CX500 ones for my 650 - as well as brake master cylinders from CB250's or whatever. There's alo the Nighthawk of course - but am wary to use those parts as I've been stung before!

Yes - I bought my grab rail from a guy who was breaking a 650z. Dark coloured side panels were in amongst the lot of stuff he was selling. I also managed to get a box of "bits" as well from a breaker. Worth £10 of anyones money. Lot of the spares are doubles of what I already have - but in amongst the usual bits and pieces were a descent set of throttle cables and a chrome chrome dish and rev counter. So sometimes its worth taking the plunge.

Im just finding the whole experience worthwhile. You are right. I hate being beaten and will carry on regardless. Although, common sense does kick in - like the case with the drilling and thread cutting. I'll have a go at most things, but If its likely I could cause more damage than harm then taking it to a better equiped workshop is an acceptable compromise!

I get a real buzz out of seeing how things are put to together and marvel at the enginering involved. Laugh also at the way a simple sheared bleed valve or the fact a seemingly inocent looking lump of metal where once a bolt used to be can cause so much heartache! I hope to get some pics of the bike up and running somewhee. I'm not a member of any hosting websites or anything. I have the bike a camera full of pictures and an e-mail address. Anyone got any advice?

Thanksd again for your kind words. Really cheered me up!
i dont watch big brother

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Volker_P
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Re: The saga continues...

Postby Volker_P » Fri Jan 19, 2007 5:54 am

When I was young I disassembled everything (well, I still do when I get something new to me) and most of it was to throw away afterwards at first. But with time I got a feeling for the materials and the parts so I can fix most things myself meanwhile. In this sense fighting with old scrap parts is not a waste of time.
For picture upload: Cteodorski set up a site where my old pictures are still accessible, see thread: "Picture gallery and document collection". However presently no new uploads seem possible. Well, I must say there was not much request then (only me :lol: ), but maybe it is possible to reactivate it again.

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bandwidth69
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Postby bandwidth69 » Sat Jan 20, 2007 2:46 pm

I think one or both of the calipers must be seized again following my recent re-build. I'm getting clean fluid out of both calipers - but still no pressure. If the piston is seized inside the caliper, then I think what's happening is that I'm filling the cavity between caliper casing and piston with hydraulic fluid and then just letting it out again, once I release the bleed valve? Does this make sense? I suspect that I was not thorough enough in making sure the caliper casing itself and that the groove in which the seal fits in, were absoluetly free of debris and dried up fluid. Also - If I didn't lubricate the piston enough this would be enough to make it stick. I confess my budget was not able to stretch to a pair of new pistons. I used the old onew which are marked and pitted, but only towards the back edge - and not near the business end, as it were. I'll keep going. Bought a new master cylinder after finding one for a CB 250RS
i dont watch big brother

cb650
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Postby cb650 » Sun Jan 21, 2007 9:28 pm

If that useless grab bar will fit a US 80/82 I'd be interested.






Terry

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Volker_P
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Re: The saga continues...

Postby Volker_P » Mon Jan 22, 2007 2:05 am

I am not sure whether I understand your problem.
If you can pump brake fluid through for bleeding but get no pressure you have air in the system. Other option (less probable) would be master cylinder seal. If you are sure it is not air, disconnect the master cylinder from the brake system and plug it with a bolt and some washers. Then you can find out wheter it is able to build up pressure. If it can, it is air trapped somewhere, no need to buy another one.
A seized caliper usually causes unsatisfactory release of the brake. After being able to set the piston in without a hydraulic press, it is rather impossible that it does not come out when the rest of the brake system is allright and free of air.

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bandwidth69
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Postby bandwidth69 » Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:12 am

Hi. I bought a 5m length of tubing and used this, with a lot of sucking, to draw fluid through the system. Yes, loads of air! But I managed to go through a whole bottle of brake fluid and got nice clear bubble free fluid through the tube from both calipers. Problem is - still no pressure! I have now though noticed that there is weeping of fluid from the resevoir at the point where the plastic cup fits onto the alloy body. This must mean the seal has gone splat? Because, after some pumping of the lever I get some pressure, but also air bubbles start appearing in the resevoir and so the whole process starts again. It seems like iv just been going round in circles! Bleeding the system, then sucking air back in again. I had thought that maybe I'd pushed the pistons too far into the caliper body, seizing them. But when there is pressure there, I can hear them click against the pads. So they are moving at least. Looks like a new seal kit or resevoir will do it.
I hope to put the grab rail on e-bay asap to helpecoup the losses iv made buying brake parts! I got my z version for about 20 pounds including UK postage. Its similar to the UK version, except has no mounts for the indicator stalks and bends inwards at the back instead of outwards like the UK version. E-mail me at bandwidth69@hotmail.com and i'll get some pics together!
i dont watch big brother

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bandwidth69
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Postby bandwidth69 » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:42 pm

Hi folks. Well, It's been a long time coming, but I finally managed tomove the mountain that was my non existant front brakes! In the end, a combination of several things it seems conspired against me. However, in the end, changing the hoses and master cylinder finally did the trick. Both sets of master cylinders that I bought from e-bay were suffering from the same problems - ie - a gunged up and perished seal at the point where the plasic push fit resevoir body meets the cast alloy housing. In fact, one even had the cheek to have a whole bunch of piston seals and rubbers go as well! So, after many weeks of blood, sweat and brake fluid, Its done. And very satisfying it is too! Also, satisfying is being able to see my "beast" on the web! My daughter is a wizz on these computer things and has set me up a "photo bucket" account, on which my hastily taken photos now live. Comments and questions appreciated. As you can see, she's more or less standard. She's painted a Ford colour though, has no obvious "Honda" badges for that "wot is it? factor and has a bit more chrome than standard thanks to a CB "custom" chainguard for that added shiny look. Also, an aftermarker chrome headlight shell and rim from my local bike shop. Italian pipes and silencers - which I have been told may or not be technically legal for the UK, and of course those K&N's which inspired a thorough rant when I first logged nto this forum last year! Oh - and an aftermarket chrome mudguard. The bike carries short stem chrome indicators from a Suzuki. I hope to mount the rear ones to the newly found grab rail as soon as possible. There's also a Dave Silver repo seat to finish her off - though it has'nt got that chrome strip that goes along the bottom edge.
Hope you enjoy the pics anyway! :)
i dont watch big brother


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