Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

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Volker_P
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Volker_P » Tue May 01, 2012 5:26 am

That's right, don't try to fire up a 60hp engine without stable mounts!
BTW, the things you did so far would have been possible with the engine in the frame. This means still all options to open the engine again in the frame if really required. :wink:
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Folsoml » Tue May 01, 2012 8:47 am

Volker_P wrote:That's right, don't try to fire up a 60hp engine without stable mounts!
BTW, the things you did so far would have been possible with the engine in the frame. This means still all options to open the engine again in the frame if really required. :wink:


I did not know how far I was going to go with it when I started. There were several places that I wanted to clean that I could not get to because of the frame. Unfortunately, I found there were many places I found I STILL could not get too--even when it was out of the frame.
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Folsoml » Thu May 03, 2012 2:53 pm

I got it reassembled and back in the frame. I started it up and:

1. The good new is that it starts.

2. The bad news is that there is a lot of oil coming out of the front of the engine. I'm not sure if it is a leak around the cylinder head, or if oil is coming out of the valves. I think (and hope) it may be the latter because when I was reassembling the engine, the manual said to fill the oil pockets around the cam shaft with oil so it will be protected during initial start up. I was not sure if oil should go around the valve springs and in their respective pockets as well, but I did not see what harm could come from it. Could this be my problem? Should I just let it run?

Another issue is that it seems to be running with the throttle wide open. I backed off the idle adjustment screw (burning my hand in the process) but it still seems to be idled way too high. How can you get to the idle adjustment screw while it's running/hot without burning yourself, and how can I get it to idle down?
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Volker_P » Thu May 03, 2012 3:03 pm

The camshaft and spring pockets should be full with oil, this is all right. Should however not leak out as soon as the cover is fixed.
Might be one of the six rubber coins that cover the access holes for the head. Clean off the mess and observe where it starts pouring out again.
Maybe get someone to look from the other side, too.

How about gloves for the idle knob? :wink:
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Folsoml » Thu May 03, 2012 4:20 pm

Tried gloves, but I could not feel well enough with them on to get to the idle knob. Maybe I need thinner gloves.
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Volker_P » Fri May 04, 2012 5:25 am

A question of experience and practice.
One can do almost everything with leather work gloves.
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Folsoml » Fri May 04, 2012 9:21 pm

The leak seemed to be coming from between the cylinder head cover and the head. When I put it back on, I used a brand new gasket. I did not treat it with any kind of dressing or anything. Should I do that before I reassemble it this time?

Also, I noted something odd when I took it back apart. One valve was a different color than all the rest. They were all the same when I reassembled it the first time. Is this an indicator of something?

The tannish one on the bottom is the odd colored one. All the rest are the color of the one on top.
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby cgswss10 » Sat May 05, 2012 12:39 am

As I don't believe you have been driving this around, this would be from trying to get the bike to idle right? I would be looking very carefully for an air leak on your #4 cylinder. You could have a restricted pilot jet, but I would be looking for an air leak my self. (there may not be anything wrong I just think this might be an indicator of a lean burn)

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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Volker_P » Sat May 05, 2012 3:36 am

Real severe leaks between head cover and head means typically one of the rubber coins is leaking. Cleaning the surfaces around the 1.2m long O-ring of the head cover should be sufficient. One may use extra sealant to exclude also small leaks. But oil pouring out like that may only happen when the head cover is really warped or one of this coins makes trouble. Hope you followed the stepwise pattern. One can also release the valve adjusters for head cover mounting.
Also make sure that the dowel pins at the rear of the head cover have clean counterparts to go into.

The brighter valve could mean it is hotter than the others because of poor thermal contact to its seat in the head.
This again could mean that it may not be tight any more. You may fill in some fuel with the head upside down and look if it stays in there or goes through slowly.
This valve may be bent then.
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby cgswss10 » Sat May 05, 2012 8:29 am

One of the closest things you will have to a "flat surface" around the home is a clean piece of glass. you can lay a piece of glass on a counter top and place your parts on to of it. Trying to slide a piece of printer paper between the part and the glass is an easy way to check for flatness

I also have been known to use contact cement to stick a piece of fine wet/day sand paper to the glass to do some minor flatting. I use oil to "wet" the abrasive paper

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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Folsoml » Sat May 05, 2012 12:55 pm

cgswss10 wrote:As I don't believe you have been driving this around, this would be from trying to get the bike to idle right? I would be looking very carefully for an air leak on your #4 cylinder.


Yes, just getting it to idle. From where might the air be leaking?

Volker_P wrote: You may fill in some fuel with the head upside down and look if it stays in there or goes through slowly.


It is holding fuel.

Volker_P wrote:But oil pouring out like that may only happen when the head cover is really warped or one of this coins makes trouble. Hope you followed the stepwise pattern.


"Pouring out" may not be the entirely correct way to describe this. It is leaking at a pretty good rate though.
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby cgswss10 » Sat May 05, 2012 7:35 pm

To get a lean burn it would have to be between the back of the intake valve and the center of the carb. This normally would be where the carb is attached to the head. It could be a pin hole in the head or the base of the carb- but those would be very unusual

I used to have an alum. plate that fit like a carb but with an air fitting in the center. I could but each intake under pressure and check for leak down. Thats a little extreme- I may be the only person in the world that made one- but I was carving on the ports with a moto tool at the time and wanted to make sure I didn't create and problems. (I did have to have one head welded because I took it too far- but that was back in the days before I understood "ram tuneing" and (back then) thought the biggest ports were a good thing (they may not be)

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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Volker_P » Sun May 06, 2012 5:50 am

For the air leak, verify your carb boots are not cracked and the clamps are tightened. Make sure they are not just tight by the end of the bolt's thread but really hold something.

So as the brighter exhaust valve seems tight and all right, make sure it has its correct play (0.008mm/0.003 inches).

Measure the thickness of the border of those rubber coins and verify the center has no cracks. Them measure the depth of the circular cutouts to get an idea what you would need.
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Folsoml » Sun May 06, 2012 11:53 am

{Deep Breath}

OK. I'm getting very frustrated with this thing. I think my best bet to fix it at this point would be to build a time machine and go back to before I took the engine apart (but I bet the time machine would leak oil).

I reassembled it and it is leaking oil in an entirely different place now. It could be any number of things:

1. Every time I take off the cylinder head cover, it seems like the bolts randomly change sizes. I did not take care the first time I took it it apart to remember which bolts went where. The manual did not help with this, so I put it back together by putting the bolts where they looked like the oughta go, and tried to balance it with the same size bolts on each side of the cover. I ended up with the bolt beside the tachometer assembly being too short. Combine this with the fact that--when I took it apart originally--one bolt was missing all together (found one half of it broken off in the head) and another broke off when I took it apart. I replaced these with similar size bolts from a local hardware store.

2. Pittsburg brand torque wrench from Harbor Freight=CRAP!! This is a lesson in "You get what you pay for." I had one that did not work so I took it back and exchanged it for ANOTHER that doesn't work. Sometimes it clicks, sometimes it doesn't. These bolts could all be torqued differently.

3. 6mm bolt on the front of the cylinder head has stripped out the threads--not on the male end, but the female end.

4. I do not have the "Honda-specific" valve adjustment tool that my manual says is needed to adjust the valves. As a result, when I reinstall the cylinder head cover, I do not loosen the valves all the way as the manual instructs. Is there a way to adjust them without this tool? Or a way to engineer a tool in my garage?

That being said:

Volker_P wrote:For the air leak, verify your carb boots are not cracked and the clamps are tightened. Make sure they are not just tight by the end of the bolt's thread but really hold something.


They seem to be.

Volker_P wrote:So as the brighter exhaust valve seems tight and all right, make sure it has its correct play (0.008mm/0.003 inches).


See #4 above

Volker_P wrote:Measure the thickness of the border of those rubber coins and verify the center has no cracks. Them measure the depth of the circular cutouts to get an idea what you would need.


The coins are brand new.
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Volker_P
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Re: Resurrecting my baby from her deep sleep, Folsoml's bike

Postby Volker_P » Mon May 07, 2012 5:53 am

The lenghts of the bolts are quite crucial. I always place them down in a pattern that makes it easy to insert them in the same way I took them out.
Probably your first leak was just a too long bolt torqued down to the end of the thread holding nothing but itself. BTW, one can measure the thread depth with a nail.

So I think you should shift back a few gears and start again with some more calmness. I think I remember this was the reason to start this project at all, wasn't it?
Seems there is still much more to learn for the young pandawan. :lol:

I dont't have the valve tool either. I just use a cranked ring spanner as shown below.
Image
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